Upcoming trial for Council seat

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basil
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UO Shard: Great Lakes
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by basil » Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:23 am

I've had disagreements with people before too, but the difference is I tend to work toward community solutions and get over myself at some point. Can you honestly say you believe that's the situation here?
Do I feel as if the offended parties have worked for a community solution to this? No, I don't. However, I do get the feeling that a large part of that attitude is because Silver refuses to accept that she owes any apology for her behavior towards the offended parties. If one side feels they've done nothing wrong, then you can't work to a solution.
The only resolution will come if the guy "on top" decides to stop dragging OOC issues into IC situations.
What, so DaKaren is supposed to be Jesus now as well? He and others are supposed to ignore everything that is being done to piss them off? DaKaren is supposed to look the other way because he is the top guy? That doesn't sound right coming from you, because you always tried to make sure people followed the rules when you were the top guy. I know you also didn't accept it when people came at you OOC. You may have done a better job of handling it in game and IC, but you didn't just let them steamroll over you.
Threats made. Really? Is this about the two year old "I'll bring down the high council" threat?
This isn't a threat you made, this is a threat that Silver made for you. I'd be concerned if I were you that someone else is making threats with your name associated with it. I even tried to send you that log cause I was afraid that since everyone knew about it, it was going to cause a collective freak out in your direction. It almost did, people were scouring for areas where they could rebuild the HC or use another building temporarily. It didn't get beyond that because of the fact you were having internet troubles and couldn't get online, that time gave people a chance to calm down and take the threat with a grain of salt because it wasn't you that made it.
That's great... but you're here speaking out against Silver without speaking about the other half of the issue at present.
I am speaking about Silver because she has crossed a line. DaKaren isn't personally attacking somebody. Do I agree with his actions of trying to block this at every turn? No. I even logged onto UO today with a 1200 ping and gave my thoughts about it to him personally.
(2) Err, since when's it not okay to call another player by his real name?
It's never ok unless they give you permission. I'm sorry, but I don't want my real name spread around in public. There are some people that play this game that have some serious social issues. It's one of the reasons they play this game because they are not socially accepted outside it.

The people that know it should only be people I have given it to and given them the right to refer to me like that. Maybe you are comfortable with having your name spread far and wide. I'm not. I work for a serious company and when idiots like Velt and Rael (in the past) have threatened to track down my place of work and tell them lies to get me fired, it causes me concern. Its why it is not ok to call me by my real name, I don't need people like that knowing my information. I like my job, I like the money I make. I don't need someone calling my work accusing me of being a pedophile or some other made up bullshit that they both threatened to do.
Really? And just who is this pissing contest with that's so interested in Jhelom? I know... just because I didn't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But it's very curious that all of these logs are suddenly available to you.

...

And the Jhelom thing... really? I don't buy it at all.
I'd say who the guild is that was working on it, but it's not my place. Their work was being done in private and thus I kept the fact I knew about it to myself. I'm pretty sure all of this has squelched their plans. Would their plans ever have come to fruition? I don't know, part of me doubts it since I've heard this being bandied about by them for a long time now with no action. However, that doesn't remove the fact that Silver, who is not on friendly terms with them, just chose Jhelom out of the blue when she controls prime real estate in Moonglow and Magincia where she could do something great. Even more, those are cities that regularly play a part in EA's fiction and could benefit from that. It would be much easier for her to grow something there. So the choice smells of rotten fish to me.

Personally, I don't know why Silver just doesn't get one more person. She has you, she can get another. DaKaren can't block it if it goes by the rules. You can impeach him if he does and I will fully support it.

I think she should have to apologize for the personal comments she has made at people, but if you all are cool with adding that kind of mix back to the Council, then so be it. I'm not going to take my toys and go home. I won't even say "I told you so" when it happens again with someone else. I'm not about that shit anymore, I just want the community to grow and get along. I want there to be people for me to play with when I get back from India.
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Edward Striker
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Edward Striker » Sun Jun 27, 2010 11:13 am

Lord DaKaren wrote:To Edward Striker,

I'm sorry that your first experience to the HC wasn't even remotely what it should have been.

I appologize on behalf of the community and humbly ask that you return in the future when things have settled.

If I may ask, who do you represent? Were you Malag's friend who came in Vent with us?
Well there is nothing to be sorry for, it is what it is. You can not control the actions of another. The truth is the truth and can not be changed no matter how many players post there likes and dislikes. I am sorry I had to witness it. As for returning, I may to see how things work itself out. But I will be taking notes for myself because what I'm seeing in these post is a house divided. No house can stand on a faulted foundation, and I see cracks in this one.

As for who I represent. I am a member of NWJ (Night Wolves of Justice). I was not here to represent the guild per say, just some of the members within that enjoy RPing. And yes I do call Malag a friend and was invited by that player and a couple others.

I ran a Tavern / Inn on Eroupa for a few years, now being on Great Lakes I have one here now. I was hopeing to use it and get things going RP wise. I also run a Hospital, Workshop and A Plant Nursery in game. Like others I have muti-accounts, and within each account I have chars. I some times have more then one at a time on. But each of mine is played independent of each other with their own backgrounds and goals. They are not made to support one major one or to defruad others. I have RP for more then 35 years, only the last 5 on-line.

I hold no animosities towards anyone. As for Ms Beauvina, I have only met twice in game, at the High Council Meeting and once before that, at an event. Both times she was disruptive to the flow of events, maybe I am just unlucky as to see her in action on bad days, I don’t know and don’t care.

If the people I see posting in here would take the time and energy they used to defend or accuse one another and channel it towards let say recruitment of new players, I think your group would grow.

Also I think any guild or group should have written rules or a code of conduct, which should be updated as the need arises, so that all players, New, current, and elder all understand what the goals, mission, and ROE is. With that document there would be no misunderstandings. Also the rules if they are there, should be enforced.

I think over all what you as a group have is great. Strong Leadership is needed for any organization to be run effectively, one person cannot do it all, and those who try normally, not always, fail. So until the infighting is resolved and players understand that they are only a small part in a larger event. You will never reach your goals as a group which is sad.

I always hate to see things like this fail, because so much time and energy is put into it. But as long as you stay down this path as a group, it will be your undoing.

Best of luck to you all on whatever path you take, and I hope to see you around.

Peace be with you all.
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Polynikes

Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Polynikes » Sun Jun 27, 2010 12:02 pm

I have read through all the posts and had conversations with many individuals in the community regarding this situation. I am not going to go list all the wrongs and real or perceived slights. Rather we should think about what is best for the Role Play Community as a whole.

I appreciate the contributions that DaKaren. RaDian and Silverbrook have made to Great Lakes thru the years. I for one do not want to see any of them leave and am disturbed that the tenor of this disagreement seems to be one of individuals determined to get their way or leave. If I am putting words in anyone's mouth forgive me that is not my intention.

I suggest that we accept Beauvina as the representative for the city of Jehlom. It is probably unrealistic to expect people to apologize to one another for the way they have conducted themselves in this situation but I would ask that we move forward and at least stop rehashing everything. While I dislike the way in which Beauvine conducted herself at the first meeting and wish that everyone could have kept ooc considerations from coloring our actions I am willing to move forward. I know I have not been the subject of verbal attacks and have not had my "role play" style insulted so prehaps it is easier for me to take a global view.

We want more players and adding Jelhom with Beauvina initially does not do that. We also need more representatives on the High Council so that there can be a chance for interaction and even disputes. Having Yew as only city represented is depressing and to an outsider must appear farcical.
What allowing someone like Beauvina to start a city ( even with alt support) opens up the chance for more activity on the High Council.

I would challenge one thought. I don't consider this to be a fake city if the alts and Beauvine do some activities..not just an occasional event. What we need are people of each city doing things under their guild tag in their city. I think that is more important to the growth and health of rp than "events". This is a personal opinion just like I prefer role play in game to on the board... that is my preference and I am not saying one is superior to the other.

As to handling future meeting of the High Council when we have someone that does not respect the time and role play of others by pulling a filabuster to get their way we should agree on sanctions. Individuals need to respect that the rest of the community. We have wasted enough collective time and energy to run several shard wide events and enjoy ourselves and expand role play on Great Lakes. This might sound like I am rewarding Beavina for a behavior that I would want to punish people for in the future. Prehaps I am ..maybe I declare martial law and then declare "The Kings Peace" whereby all verbal combatants in this engagement peace bond their pens and tongues and move forward.

This has gone on too long and too many people are are disenchanted with the lack of leadership we are displaying. Flame away those that want to argue points but we have to move forward. We are too small a community to allow this to continue.

I hope everyone will take these thoughts as they are intended and seek a positive resolution to this issue.

Sincerely.

Polynikes of Yew
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Ra'Dian Fl'Gith
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Ra'Dian Fl'Gith » Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:02 pm

basil wrote:Do I feel as if the offended parties have worked for a community solution to this? No, I don't. However, I do get the feeling that a large part of that attitude is because Silver refuses to accept that she owes any apology for her behavior towards the offended parties. If one side feels they've done nothing wrong, then you can't work to a solution.
It's not so much of a neither side feels they've done anything wrong; I can assure you I've had discussions with Silverbrook's player about how I felt about her side of the situation going on in the public eye. What I don't think several people understand is the whole "two way street" thing wherein, whether you see it or not, they both were pushing each other's buttons those nights, but both times, it was initiated into OOC by the Chancellor, which really isn't cool.
What, so DaKaren is supposed to be Jesus now as well? He and others are supposed to ignore everything that is being done to piss them off? DaKaren is supposed to look the other way because he is the top guy? That doesn't sound right coming from you, because you always tried to make sure people followed the rules when you were the top guy. I know you also didn't accept it when people came at you OOC. You may have done a better job of handling it in game and IC, but you didn't just let them steamroll over you.
There's a complete world of difference about how I handled differences with people though, Basil. A COMPLETE world of difference. First and foremost, when I said in character that an issue would be discussed and reviewed by the High Council, I actually, you know sat down after meetings and during the course between meetings, and discussed them, and when they came back the following meeting, they had been discussed, and situations were handled to the best ability of fairness.

Yeah, I certainly made sure people followed "the rules," but then, those were IC rules, not OOC rules, and they were easier to back with support. I also, before going out on limbs, made sure I had the backing of the people who trusted me to moderate.

I'm not asking DaKaren to "ignore" how he feels, but he shouldn't be dragging it into game just because he perceives it as a personal attack that Beauvina wants to serve on the council, or that he perceives it as an entitlement issue, or because he believes it's all being done to stroke someone's personal ego.

This is about handling things appropriately, and when you don't trust that the person who is supposed to be handling things appropriate is actually going to do so, then what do you do? I mean, Basil, seriously, those logs that you've seen of the HC meetings don't show you that for 30-45 minutes of the meeting, we all just sat there, every one of us. Not because Beauvina was flouting anything; hell she kept asking what was taking so long. It was because OOC, ICQ, Vent, and god knows what other kinds of discussions were going on in a flurry. Where people, to my knowledge, were not backing DaKaren up on his decision, but he proceeded with "NO" anyway.

So how do you, on the receiving end of that, behave?

I'm not saying Silverbrook is beyond blame; I also don't believe Silverbrook or DaKaren will sit down and have any sort of conversation with each other over this because they're pretty much convinced each other is Satan. But I question... how is one person in need of apologizing but the other is not?
This isn't a threat you made, this is a threat that Silver made for you. I'd be concerned if I were you that someone else is making threats with your name associated with it. I even tried to send you that log cause I was afraid that since everyone knew about it, it was going to cause a collective freak out in your direction. It almost did, people were scouring for areas where they could rebuild the HC or use another building temporarily. It didn't get beyond that because of the fact you were having internet troubles and couldn't get online, that time gave people a chance to calm down and take the threat with a grain of salt because it wasn't you that made it.
Well this is a funny one... this is the first time I've heard that I was even involved in this threat. I'm going to guess it goes something like, "Yeah, well, I'll just get Jim to drop the HC plots again." (Yes, ladies and gentlemen, in a couple of issue-laden evenings, I've dropped the plots to bare ground because I was fed up with the drama -- I also knew beforehand I'd not ever really do it because the community truly does mean a hell of a lot more to me than that, so I even preserved the building design before dropping them).

What I find ironic about this... What I find TRULY ironic about this... is that DaKaren's made the same threat to at least two other people because at a point where he and I were in disagreement about things, he felt I was personally attacking him through IC motivations, and he decided that if I did X, Y, or Z, he'd just piss me off and get me to drop the plots again.

Of course, knowing that, I just log out now when the drama gets too high, because it's a sad testimony (yes, this is me blaming myself... enjoy it!) of a coping mechanism when dropping the plots is therapeutic. It punishes the community for my temporary anger at one or two individuals. And so I no longer do that, nor will I. Like I've said all along though, we all have our moments. I take responsibility for mine, and yeah, I also apologize for mine. But then, having been working with this beast of a Council for the greater portion of seven years, I also understand fully that community must come first.
I am speaking about Silver because she has crossed a line. DaKaren isn't personally attacking somebody. Do I agree with his actions of trying to block this at every turn? No. I even logged onto UO today with a 1200 ping and gave my thoughts about it to him personally.
He isn't? Then you clearly haven't seen all of the associated logs, don't have access to a recording of various Vent conversations, but if you think it's appropriate to banter on at length in an OOC fashion and then just wave a hand and dismiss someone due to personal issues, I'm going to disagree with you.
It's never ok unless they give you permission. I'm sorry, but I don't want my real name spread around in public. There are some people that play this game that have some serious social issues. It's one of the reasons they play this game because they are not socially accepted outside it.
No one ever called him by his full name. I'm sorry, but if I say Brad instead of DaKaren, or someone says Jim instead of Ra, or hell if I even remember your first name instead of Basil, how is that offensive in an OOC light? I'm sorry... no one knows Brad from Tom, Dick, or Harry. It's a first name. Now, I fully agree, if Brad WhateverHisLastNameIs had been shouted out, that's an issue. But, you know, it wasn't.
The people that know it should only be people I have given it to and given them the right to refer to me like that. Maybe you are comfortable with having your name spread far and wide. I'm not. I work for a serious company and when idiots like Velt and Rael (in the past) have threatened to track down my place of work and tell them lies to get me fired, it causes me concern. Its why it is not ok to call me by my real name, I don't need people like that knowing my information. I like my job, I like the money I make. I don't need someone calling my work accusing me of being a pedophile or some other made up bullshit that they both threatened to do.
And they're going to do all of this with your first name? Seriously? Come on. And yeah, I know full well the situations with both Velt and Rael, particularly Velt, all too well.
I'd say who the guild is that was working on it, but it's not my place. Their work was being done in private and thus I kept the fact I knew about it to myself. I'm pretty sure all of this has squelched their plans. Would their plans ever have come to fruition? I don't know, part of me doubts it since I've heard this being bandied about by them for a long time now with no action. However, that doesn't remove the fact that Silver, who is not on friendly terms with them, just chose Jhelom out of the blue when she controls prime real estate in Moonglow and Magincia where she could do something great. Even more, those are cities that regularly play a part in EA's fiction and could benefit from that. It would be much easier for her to grow something there. So the choice smells of rotten fish to me.
Well, again, it's a curious testament... I don't know who this guild is (before you bother, I'm not saying that means it doesn't exist), and I'm completely unaware of a complete group who is at odds with Silverbrook. If that's the case, and they can demonstrate that Silverbrook actually, you know, knew of these plans, that might be an issue to consider.

I can tell you from OOC discussions, I've been told the choice was because it's got a nice little farming area, and that it seemed appropriate, and because it was unlikely anyone was going to be interested in the isle itself because of its very small housing area. Is it possible I'm having the wool pulled over my eyes? Possibly. But since I didn't actually ask for the motivations for "Why Jhelom?" and they just came out in what felt like a completely natural conversation discussing the idea that Jhelomites could be the "hicks" of UO, that it was an out-of-the-way area, and that it presented a good place to host events with various buildings, I'm going to say that it wasn't show and tell for my benefit.

Could I be wrong? Absolutely. But then, I tend to trust people to be truthful until I find out they haven't been.
Personally, I don't know why Silver just doesn't get one more person. She has you, she can get another. DaKaren can't block it if it goes by the rules. You can impeach him if he does and I will fully support it.
The conversation has actually trended that way; I'm uncertain as to what will come of it overall, but that's a whole different story, and not one for me to broach.
I think she should have to apologize for the personal comments she has made at people, but if you all are cool with adding that kind of mix back to the Council, then so be it. I'm not going to take my toys and go home. I won't even say "I told you so" when it happens again with someone else. I'm not about that shit anymore, I just want the community to grow and get along. I want there to be people for me to play with when I get back from India.
Well, like I've said before, the two people I'm certain have had issues, it's a two way street. They'd all have to sit down and come together and decide to hash it out, bury the axe (somewhere than in each others' backs), and move on. Problem is, Basil, none of them feel like doing that... they're all pretty vocal about it. So I'm not sure how we force them to do so.
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Ra'Dian Fl'Gith
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Ra'Dian Fl'Gith » Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:14 pm

Poly,

Thank you for chiming in on this subject. I'm not going to respond to particular items because as you know, I'm pretty much in agreement with you across the board. I do want to touch on one thing here,
Polynikes wrote:As to handling future meeting of the High Council when we have someone that does not respect the time and role play of others by pulling a filabuster to get their way we should agree on sanctions. Individuals need to respect that the rest of the community. We have wasted enough collective time and energy to run several shard wide events and enjoy ourselves and expand role play on Great Lakes.
I agree with you here; my only issue with this is we need to be certain that when we ask someone to table something that we will, indeed, return to it, and work to resolve the issue.

But I definitely agree that on one hand, we cannot allow people's time to be wasted in this fashion ever again. It's completely disruptive to the flow of the HC, completely disruptive to the function and purpose of the HC (to promote RP and get community information out there either through announcement or RP), and completely disrespectful of everyone in attendance.

On the other hand, we need to make sure that not only do we expect the attendants to follow rules and afford each other respect, we need to make sure that the moderator of said forum provides a respectful environment that people can feel comfortable coming forward in.

So to that end, my expectations I guess are pretty simple: Yes, we can ask people to sit down if their time allotment is up; if they refuse, well, then I support the use of the house ban feature (and apparently I need to re-add DaKaren to the friend's list for that to work, so I'll make sure that happens at the next meeting or some point in between).

On the other side of the coin, I expect that if someone is told a situation will be discussed later that it is, indeed, discussed later, and is handled appropriately, and that by the time someone comes to the next meeting, an issue is resolved one way or another. What this also means is that one person doesn't get to take a stance and say, "This is how it will be," in the face of others who are arguing in favor of a different decision. That's not community, that's dictatorship, and it's inappropriate. I don't care how strongly one person's opinion is on a matter, if others are saying "go ahead," it doesn't matter whether the perception is that people are just "giving in" or whatever, it's inappropriate to take a hardline stance for the community when the community itself is not taking a hardline stance.

Because, at the end of the day, this is and should be all about forwarding community.
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Lord DaKaren
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Lord DaKaren » Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:49 pm

I apparently missed this last night, and it’s woven itself into further responses… Sigh.
Ra'Dian Fl'Gith wrote:If you think that her having a couple more people back her up would make this go away, you've missed out on what's going on. He hasn't said it to me, but it's been pretty clearly told me by others that he's done the "If she gets a seat, I'll leave," method of keeping her out, which puts people in the awkward position of deciding who to support. And of course, works to divide the community, rather than unite.
Whoever told you this is just outright lying. I have never said that I would quit if Beauvina got a seat on the HC. So you can drop this little bit of tripe from your rhetoric.
Furthermore, taking this next quote from latter post and addressing it now, since it is tangentially related:
Ra'Dian Fl'Gith wrote:Well this is a funny one... this is the first time I've heard that I was even involved in this threat. I'm going to guess it goes something like, "Yeah, well, I'll just get Jim to drop the HC plots again." (Yes, ladies and gentlemen, in a couple of issue-laden evenings, I've dropped the plots to bare ground because I was fed up with the drama -- I also knew beforehand I'd not ever really do it because the community truly does mean a hell of a lot more to me than that, so I even preserved the building design before dropping them).

What I find ironic about this... What I find TRULY ironic about this... is that DaKaren's made the same threat to at least two other people because at a point where he and I were in disagreement about things, he felt I was personally attacking him through IC motivations, and he decided that if I did X, Y, or Z, he'd just piss me off and get me to drop the plots again.

Of course, knowing that, I just log out now when the drama gets too high, because it's a sad testimony (yes, this is me blaming myself... enjoy it!) of a coping mechanism when dropping the plots is therapeutic. It punishes the community for my temporary anger at one or two individuals. And so I no longer do that, nor will I. Like I've said all along though, we all have our moments. I take responsibility for mine, and yeah, I also apologize for mine. But then, having been working with this beast of a Council for the greater portion of seven years, I also understand fully that community must come first.
Actually, I think I know which threat Basil was referring to and it had to do with how someone said you would respond to things. This is also from November, so not directly about the current situation.

About the plot dropping. Uhm, again, whoever is feeding your information is wrong. I did say that if you got mad again that you might drop the Grove in anger. (This was after the 2nd time you’d done it about a year) Never once did I say that “I would make you drop them” or even that “I want Ra to drop them.” Seriously, why would I want the Grove dropped? How in the hell would that benefit the HC or the community? I did, however, consider alternative options as I knew it was a possibility. So let’s put down the gossip crack pipe, stop being sensationalistic and think logically here.

I’m going to skip around here a bit now since there is a bunch to cover…

Using real names:
If someone has asked that their real name not be used, as I and a few others have, then the issue is NOT open to debate. I don’t care if the likelihood of anyone finding me based off my first name is infinitesimal; it’s simply not in anyone else’s prevue to make that decision for me.

Some people are okay with their real name being used, and that’s fine. However, those people must respect the wishes of those who feel differently. Period.

The ‘45’ minutes of HC time wasted:
On 6/07/10 at 18:43 (remember my local time is PST) the farmers started. They ended at 19:03. Less than a minute later IC I said that the HC would consider this and get back to her. A minute later IC I asked Beauvina to have a seat. This is when we have the Vent and alliance chat discussion about using alts to get a city seat, which, at the time, nobody seemed in favor of. Since Beauvina never accepted either alliance invite, she did not participate in this and in had to be told (OOC) in game as well. It’s at 19:31 where everyone simply wants to move forward that Poly is asked to continue speaking regardless of the fact that Beauvina hasn’t sat down and keeps interrupting.

Now, you can’t honestly expect that this could have been handled ‘much’ better when we were all discussing it in several methods. Vent/alliance/icq. Quite frankly, she had to have known this could be the outcome of using a wholly improper method to attain a seat on the HC. Nobody in recent memory, going back to the beginning of 2007, has anyone even attempted this. While other cities have people’s alts as citizens, nobody has tried to use their alts as the constitutionally required community support.

The reason that NcT doesn’t have a seat on the HC is, as I’ve pointed out, that they haven’t had the required citizens to do so. Malag had done just fine relating the town’s RP ‘concerns’ without needing to cast multiple votes for things. While YM was away, Yew consisted of Martyna, Willa, Evilice (who DID come to HC irregularly), Lika, and Kaz (before she stopped playing ‘08ish). For a good while it was Willa who held the seat on the HC, after Ioshus and before Lika.
Ra'Dian Fl'Gith wrote:You can call it whatever you want. You know from our discussion that I don't believe you; you also know that when presented with the situation of myself and other community people backing her, that you steered away from the topic and never answered.
Refer to your ICQ logs on 6/23/10 and you will find that you are wrong. Look around 3:50:23 and 4:15:28 (CST). Whether or not you chose to believe it is your own business, but substituting your belief for ‘truth’ isn’t going to work.
Ra'Dian Fl'Gith wrote:Except of course we already know what happens when she goes out and attempts to find new players, don't we?
Absolutely nothing? Since the only time she ever even pretended to do that was around election time and it was a blatant attempt to shill the vote? Something that’s never been allowed and you know it. Whoever she got to vote from outside the community didn’t stick around that night and hasn’t returned since. If you’re going to attempt to blame that on me, you can stop right there. Hard to have any impact on people I’ve never met in game, nor could I keep them away if I tried.

Re Stryker:
You know the OOC reasons that he wasn’t removed, and you know that it’s not going to be talked about publicly because it is of none of the community’s business. He made it known that things would be rough for a while, and has stopped in vent a few times to say hi. The only IC requirement placed on a Councilor is that they let the Council know of their absence.

Now, could we remove Striker, Silverbrook, Chelsee Lynn and Erich A. Zann from their seats for not showing up? Certainly. In fact, the names pretty much only exist ‘on paper’ at this point and had I deleted them off the website this wouldn’t even have been brought up.
Ra'Dian Fl'Gith wrote:So really, a "faked" city becomes "real" when there's 3 people there? I mean, come on. Do you not see how ludicrous that sounds? I understand you are having issues with this, but I and other people in the community know (as do you) that Silverbrook's player does run some fun and interesting events. If that were the complete and total only function that the City of Jhelom ever performed -- even at one every two months -- it would be worth having done. So it's one person. Hell, I've already said I'd find a way to make it three. It's not as though we have people clamoring to fill seats, and yet, for some reason an IC rule is having OOC strangleholds placed on it specifically to prevent someone who wants to do something for the community from doing so in an "official" capacity until they've jumped through hoops. Again, I suspect were this other players, this wouldn't have even been an issue.
Silver’s player has run one event this year and nothing since late ’07 or early ’08 (Haiku in Magincia, and then the Cow Pageant). She has participated as a judge in one library event since then, but not in the other things we’ve done. Protest against Casca, Halloween party…

Why is it SOOOOO important that Jhelom get on the HC before anything is done in or as a city? Before there are even people saying they will back it and devote time to making it work? Before any events have been held, before the city even has a shadow of framework behind it? This is why the rules to get on the HC were put in place, to make sure that the people behind an endeavor were serious and that seats weren’t just given away.

Why is it so wrong to expect that Jhelom live up to the expectations that have been in place? Why should Silver be exempted from putting any work into Jhelom before expecting a seat on the HC?

I’ve been trying to get LotF to assume a role in one of the cities. I made it very clear to Galen that things had to be set up before a HC seat would be given and even suggested that there should be a building nearby. Jhelom, Vesper and Minoc were my suggestions as they had attributes expressed by their guild. I even suggested Whispering Winds when Lore announced his decision to move and Duke said he wanted to sell the houses there.

So, Re: Buildings:
I never said that someone HAD to have a building in the city they represented, as that’s nearly impossible for all Britannian cities besides Britain. Having a building near their city would be good, since you can’t really put things in an NPC building and not expect them not to be taken or decay. Some civic structures would be good. With housing the way it is currently, you should be able to find even a tiny plot to plunk down a Mayor’s or Councilor’s office/home/civic center etc. I don’t expect the scale of what Yew or even NcT has done – that’s a LOT of work to place and maintain that many buildings.

When I said ‘along the coast’ I was referring to how Clannad Skara handled housing when they took over Skara Brae. They placed 3 or 4 buildings along the cost to the NE of the city on the mainland, perfectly acceptable. Jhelom does have housing plots on the northern isle, however, they are probably all taken. So looking around the Shrine of Honor would be the next logical step, or on Dragon Isle to the north.

A building isn’t a requirement, but it would be nice.

We can continue to argue about this and drag everyone down kicking and screaming, or Silver can build a real foundation for Jhelom instead of building a house of cards.
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Ra'Dian Fl'Gith
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Ra'Dian Fl'Gith » Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:47 pm

Lord DaKaren wrote:Whoever told you this is just outright lying. I have never said that I would quit if Beauvina got a seat on the HC. So you can drop this little bit of tripe from your rhetoric.
Whether you have specifically said or strongly implied it, it has come from people I would not accuse of lying about anything. I'm pointing out the awkward position that you have put several people in by your continued stance on the subject in the face of what -- while perhaps they are telling you one thing and me another -- is pretty clear not a solid community stance against moving forward in a positive direction on the matter.
Actually, I think I know which threat Basil was referring to and it had to do with how someone said you would respond to things. This is also from November, so not directly about the current situation.
I understand it's not about the current situation. Neither are comments that Silverbrook's player made months and years ago with regard to the High Council, and yet they seem to be fair play here.
About the plot dropping. Uhm, again, whoever is feeding your information is wrong. I did say that if you got mad again that you might drop the Grove in anger. (This was after the 2nd time you’d done it about a year)
And as we both know, the very rare times that they have been dropped, they've been returned to their former status within an hour, two tops, of them having been dropped.
Never once did I say that “I would make you drop them” or even that “I want Ra to drop them.” Seriously, why would I want the Grove dropped? How in the hell would that benefit the HC or the community? I did, however, consider alternative options as I knew it was a possibility. So let’s put down the gossip crack pipe, stop being sensationalistic and think logically here.
It's not a "gossip crack pipe," nor am I being "sensationalistic" or thinking illogically. Look, as I've told you both privately, and now publicly, we all have our moments. That you somehow feel as if you never slight anyone during heated discussions is absolutely laughable given that I've been on the receiving end of your "calm demeanor" that you want us to all wish you had.

I'm not saying that you were serious when you said it, I'm not even accusing you of saying anything other than saying something in the heat of a moment. As I've already admitted to doing myself. The point is, you and a couple of others are holding to gospel things that Silverbrook's player said in the heat of a very heated discussion about whatever it was that was at the root of a couple of the discussions.

It would no more be fair to accuse you of really wanting to destroy the High Council anymore than it would be fair to accuse Silverbrook of really wanting to destroy the High Council.

That's the crux of this: The accusation is being bandied that Silver said she'd get me to destroy the High Council for her (at least, that's the gist I'm getting), which is almost hysterical because she knows about as much as anyone else on the shard who truly knows me knows that while I've had a couple of moments, I certainly have always supported and stood behind the High Council as an entity, and helped throughout the years to ensure it continued to exist.

End of the point: I no more believe you are trying to destroy it than you would think I am trying to destroy it, but if we're going to bandy about silly accusations, then let them all fall out onto the table I guess.
Using real names:
If someone has asked that their real name not be used, as I and a few others have, then the issue is NOT open to debate. I don’t care if the likelihood of anyone finding me based off my first name is infinitesimal; it’s simply not in anyone else’s prevue to make that decision for me.
Strange, because up until this very moment, it's the first time I've even heard you say not to mention your name. I know you've had concerns about whether people knew who your alts were -- something I respect; but a respect you seem to drop whenever you don't feel like returning it to others.
Some people are okay with their real name being used, and that’s fine. However, those people must respect the wishes of those who feel differently. Period.
Those people probably shouldn't have passed out their real names if they were that concerned about it, but I agree, it would be a sign of respect not to use it if someone has been requested not to. I don't think there's any "period" in that sentence though, because if you fail to return the same level of respect that you expect yourself, you pretty much end up running the risk that someone is going to say or do something you're not happy about. This is the generic you, not you specifically, but you can't really put a period in a sentence where you truly cannot control that save but to not pass out your real name.
The ‘45’ minutes of HC time wasted:
On 6/07/10 at 18:43 (remember my local time is PST) the farmers started. They ended at 19:03. Less than a minute later IC I said that the HC would consider this and get back to her. A minute later IC I asked Beauvina to have a seat. This is when we have the Vent and alliance chat discussion about using alts to get a city seat, which, at the time, nobody seemed in favor of. Since Beauvina never accepted either alliance invite, she did not participate in this and in had to be told (OOC) in game as well. It’s at 19:31 where everyone simply wants to move forward that Poly is asked to continue speaking regardless of the fact that Beauvina hasn’t sat down and keeps interrupting.
That's a strange interpretation of a log where the words "I'd love to discuss this ad nauseum, but really, OOC decisions aren't going to affect IC ones," "Just give her the seat and can we move on?" "whatever, im ambivalent as long as she doesnt interrupt all meetings with cow tangents," and yet regardless of all of that, you proceeded with "No." Of course, this is because you believe that for people to have any voice in this community that they must either register on Tomes of Sosaria (in a registry that I specifically stated repeatedly is for OOC and informational purposes only, NOT a tool for forced in-game interaction) or upon these forums; requirements that are, frankly, ridiculous.
Now, you can’t honestly expect that this could have been handled ‘much’ better when we were all discussing it in several methods. Vent/alliance/icq. Quite frankly, she had to have known this could be the outcome of using a wholly improper method to attain a seat on the HC. Nobody in recent memory, going back to the beginning of 2007, has anyone even attempted this. While other cities have people’s alts as citizens, nobody has tried to use their alts as the constitutionally required community support.
Yes, yes I can expect it to have been handled better, and a lot differently. Maybe you think she might have known it was a possible outcome; from where I sit, you're the one using an OOC stranglehold that doesn't exist (nor did it exist when the rules were written; in fact it was specifically discussed that this very situation could be a potential outcome, and the people who agreed to the method of propagation all came to the conclusion that it if someone went through that much trouble, so be it).

I find it strange that you're so content to use a vice grip rule in an OOC fashion that was never intended to be used in such a manner, and you refuse to acknowledge anyone else's thoughts on the matter other than your own and the couple of people who have stepped up publicly to say, "Yeah, that's how it should be." Again, if you were moving forward with community in mind, I don't see how this would be an issue. A respected player (whether you currently respect her or not) want(ed)s to do something in the community with the High Council, and you seem to find it appropriate to take a hardline stance because in your opinion it's about ego stroking and pissing in Wheaties and whatever else you personally feel it is.
The reason that NcT doesn’t have a seat on the HC is, as I’ve pointed out, that they haven’t had the required citizens to do so. Malag had done just fine relating the town’s RP ‘concerns’ without needing to cast multiple votes for things. While YM was away, Yew consisted of Martyna, Willa, Evilice (who DID come to HC irregularly), Lika, and Kaz (before she stopped playing ‘08ish). For a good while it was Willa who held the seat on the HC, after Ioshus and before Lika.
This is yet another version of Yew's seat on the High Council, but in the end, it's not really a crux of any concern I have. As I've said so repeatedly I'm almost tired of hearing myself say it, it's a matter of the rules have not been applied evenly, they've been applied on a case by case basis -- regardless of which version I'm being presented with now -- and that's exactly how they should be. At the end of the day, community should come before "Well, you didn't dot that 'i' or cross that 't', so don't bother."
Refer to your ICQ logs on 6/23/10 and you will find that you are wrong. Look around 3:50:23 and 4:15:28 (CST). Whether or not you chose to believe it is your own business, but substituting your belief for ‘truth’ isn’t going to work.
You might want to provide better timestamps for this debate, because at 3:50:18 CST, we're discussing the nature of the High Court, and at 4:15:ish CST, yeah, you make the comment that you're not opposed to the person in question being on the HC, but then the discussion between us continues to be the standards you think it's necessary to uphold, and again, your single-sided version of the standard that you believe should be met.

What you will notice is that 4:25:56, I mention specifically making a character to support her with, and say, "But that won't make this mess go away I suspect," and it's ironic to note that the conversation then goes to why or why not particular communities would or would not qualify based on the number of people involved. I stand by the idea that I don't think it would either.
Absolutely nothing? Since the only time she ever even pretended to do that was around election time and it was a blatant attempt to shill the vote? Something that’s never been allowed and you know it. Whoever she got to vote from outside the community didn’t stick around that night and hasn’t returned since. If you’re going to attempt to blame that on me, you can stop right there. Hard to have any impact on people I’ve never met in game, nor could I keep them away if I tried.
Actually, I will put the blame on you for trying to use out of game resources to challenge the legitimacy of someone who actually went out and campaigned in public in a fully RPed sense, and enticed people to go and cast votes on her behalf. Why wouldn't they ever return? Perhaps due to the negative reception they received, or the negative light in which their participation was cast? It's never been allowed to campaign? That's a laugh. And YOU are the only person who has ever required someone to register online in order for their votes to count in-game. The ONLY OOC restriction on that is that someone can't parade an array of alts to vote for themselves to sit in an officer's seat -- and before someone points out "that's just what she did though," we first, have no proof they were all alts, and second, the election process for Chancellor is much different than that for representing a city. The process to represent a city was made horrifically simple so that it would encourage people to step forward, take a seat on the Council, and get something started in a community fashion that the HC could help promote. Can you honestly tell me that's what's going on here?
Re Stryker:
You know the OOC reasons that he wasn’t removed, and you know that it’s not going to be talked about publicly because it is of none of the community’s business. He made it known that things would be rough for a while, and has stopped in vent a few times to say hi. The only IC requirement placed on a Councilor is that they let the Council know of their absence.
As I said, it's not an issue. What is at the heart of it is that we don't stranglehold people over the rules. Which I've said a dozen times.
Now, could we remove Striker, Silverbrook, Chelsee Lynn and Erich A. Zann from their seats for not showing up? Certainly. In fact, the names pretty much only exist ‘on paper’ at this point and had I deleted them off the website this wouldn’t even have been brought up.
Well, as many of us already know, Silverbrook already isn't representing Magincia to the High Council, so while there seems to be some strange issue there for you, most of the rest of us get that she's not. And yeah, we probably could. That's not really my point, as I've stated repeatedly, but I guess the point's lost.
Silver’s player has run one event this year and nothing since late ’07 or early ’08 (Haiku in Magincia, and then the Cow Pageant). She has participated as a judge in one library event since then, but not in the other things we’ve done. Protest against Casca, Halloween party…
Silver's been playing longer than since 2007. While she may have missed the protest against Casca, so did I. The Halloween Party was a fun time; I'm actually sad she missed out on it. But that doesn't discredit her for what she has done when she has done it. For the record, one of her characters was also at the Royal Academy: Compassion study. Of course, throwing that out there is probably akin to saying, "OF COURSE she was at one of YOUR events, RA." To which I'd counter, "She wasn't at the Halloween event, now was she?" While not "my" event, it certainly was "our" event.
Why is it SOOOOO important that Jhelom get on the HC before anything is done in or as a city? Before there are even people saying they will back it and devote time to making it work? Before any events have been held, before the city even has a shadow of framework behind it? This is why the rules to get on the HC were put in place, to make sure that the people behind an endeavor were serious and that seats weren’t just given away.
Why is it SOOOOOOOOOO important that she doesn't get the seat on Jhelom before "anything" is done. And what is "anything." She at least took the time to set up a back story and some background before approaching the Council, which is more than a lot of people who've represented cities have done.

Again with the rules... you and I are in complete and utter disagreement as to that particular set of rules, and I have the advantage of having been there in the in-game room when we were discussing the finer nuances of the stuff via both party and in character. So I question your version of why the rules were created.
Why is it so wrong to expect that Jhelom live up to the expectations that have been in place? Why should Silver be exempted from putting any work into Jhelom before expecting a seat on the HC?
Again, those are largely your expectations. I for one am quite willing to stand behind any respected member of the community -- and hell, new members of the community -- and see what comes of it. It's not like we've got anything to lose, is it? I mean, do we start telling evil guilds that we won't interact with them until they at least meet some minimum standard?
I’ve been trying to get LotF to assume a role in one of the cities. I made it very clear to Galen that things had to be set up before a HC seat would be given and even suggested that there should be a building nearby. Jhelom, Vesper and Minoc were my suggestions as they had attributes expressed by their guild. I even suggested Whispering Winds when Lore announced his decision to move and Duke said he wanted to sell the houses there.
I know, and frankly, I'd support Galen doing something with the Council with or without a ton of backing, again, because I believe he would have community interest at heart. Sure you made your expectations clear, but again, I'm unsure why yours is the only voice that seems to count in the community.
So, Re: Buildings:
I never said that someone HAD to have a building in the city they represented, as that’s nearly impossible for all Britannian cities besides Britain. Having a building near their city would be good, since you can’t really put things in an NPC building and not expect them not to be taken or decay. Some civic structures would be good. With housing the way it is currently, you should be able to find even a tiny plot to plunk down a Mayor’s or Councilor’s office/home/civic center etc. I don’t expect the scale of what Yew or even NcT has done – that’s a LOT of work to place and maintain that many buildings.
That's a conversation we had the other day; you did make it pretty clear that someone should have a building nearby, but that's semi-moot. If a group of people decided to build up a community in Cove, they could do so by just roleplaying right there within the walls. Would we restrict them? I certainly hope not.
When I said ‘along the coast’ I was referring to how Clannad Skara handled housing when they took over Skara Brae. They placed 3 or 4 buildings along the cost to the NE of the city on the mainland, perfectly acceptable. Jhelom does have housing plots on the northern isle, however, they are probably all taken. So looking around the Shrine of Honor would be the next logical step, or on Dragon Isle to the north.
But then, my argument would be, if it's not directly part of that specific area, wouldn't it make as much sense for them to call it whatever they wanted?
A building isn’t a requirement, but it would be nice.
Truly, I hope that's your stance on the subject. It's how I feel about the matter too, and I hope it would never be used as a reason to deny someone the opportunity to participate.
We can continue to argue about this and drag everyone down kicking and screaming, or Silver can build a real foundation for Jhelom instead of building a house of cards.
I'm sorry you feel that way, truly. But, I'll leave it at this: if two other community members stand behind her and say, "We're good to go with this and will support her events/community," I don't expect to hear anything IC about how it's my alt or someone else's alt and that it doesn't count.
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MalagAste
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by MalagAste » Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:09 pm

Alright I'm finally ready I think to make my post on this subject.

I'll not be attending any trail for this because quite frankly I don't think it should ever have come to a point it would need one.

If anyone has noticed I really haven't been on this week much at all. I just don't care to. You know I'd like to lay blame somewhere but it's Me. I'm so fed up with the drama and disgusted at the behaviors of several key people that I just could care less to even log in and deal with it.


I told many people in ICQ so this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that I'm done with the Drama. I'll continue to get up and walk away if that's where I think the RP is headed. Childish? NO. I've just lost both my parents in the last two years and have more RL stress than you can all possibly imagine... I do not play UO to deal with Drama. I play to escape and relax and have a good time with my friends... (in which I want to say that I consider most all of you my friends) So if I'm walking away its for my own sanity and I could care less about dealing with more drama... I simply can't handle it and I'll be 100% honest here I WON'T.

And as for what went on I agree with Poly. (Scary I know)... This was totally and 100% beyond what should have happened.

I'm upset and highly disappointed that a group of adults would have to act in this fashion it's just irritating. I was highly disappointed after getting Tibs to come to a council meeting only to have him blasted by OOC Drama... That makes a fantastic impression let me tell you. And I was totally disappointed. Sadly I have to say this is NOT the first time I've had this disappointment. But I certainly hope it is last time.

I would like for a Security Officer to be assigned at each Council Meeting. Someone that is a Member of the BAF who can be friended to the building for that particular meeting and is in charge if something should happen and persons need to be removed. This will take the "heat" off the council give the BAF some role at the meeting and allow someone not on the council to handle it and keep the meetings flowing. This person would need to follow the orders of the Chancellor and the Council and can't act on their own. But that would free up the council from having to take the time to deal with trouble of that nature and allow the meetings to progress.

But I'll say this... I told several this is an issue that should have been handled OOC in ICQ or Vent or where ever should never have been Blasted all over in OOC talk ingame... It would have been better served if Silver had gracefully sat down and her and DaKaren worked out whatever in private chat... not ingame. I'm extremely disappointed. And I'll continue to be should it continue.

If it does continue I'll have to say I'll be walking out of a lot more meetings.

I would think that as adults this could be worked out in a much better way. And I'm going to say for about the 300th time... DaKaren and Silver need to get over whatever and work things out between them. I don't want to be involved at all and I REFUSE to take sides. I won't be forced to take sides. It's not my battle. Silver knows what went between us and I don't want that hashed all over any forums either. I'll discuss that with Silver privately as these matters should be handled.

Everyone knows my goal is to better the community and bring in new people. I can't do that if each time I do the community acts as it did the other day. I don't want to lay blame or point fingers... each of us knows what our role is and what we should be doing. And all of us are accountable for our own actions and we know what we are doing... I just ask that you all think more about the community and less about who did what to who when... Please consider that this about community. And our sandbox is getting pretty worn and it's got a lot of cat shit in it... so lets not be flinging crap at one another. Scoop the poop and lets get back to good RP can we? I know no one has the cleanest box so I won't go pointing out the turds in your box if you don't tell me about mine.

In other words nobody has been the worlds best RP saint... everyone has their moments .... and not everyone is going to always agree with your RP or your stance... so perhaps if you see that what your doing isn't going over how you thought it should... maybe you should step back and look at your castle and foundation again... and perhaps tweak or rethink your RP or your stance. And you know if you fart in the pool.... it's going to make waves. And pissing in the pool leaves a warm spot. And everyone else is in the pool with you...

We don't have the numbers to be so stubborn or self-righteous... that we feel the need to alienate our own.

If that's what you all want to do .... then you can start with losing me, because I play to have fun... and enjoy the RP community. And I hate to lose any of my friends, but I can't take the drama.
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Lore Denin
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Lore Denin » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:54 am

Alot of OC nonesense in all of this..... drop it back IC....

Cow girl has the ingame support, I am with Ra on this... your character does not know what dubious means are being used to generate that suppport.... 12 accounts three comps and 4 non approved third party programs, etc.

So you take it at face value... however, The council obvious recognizes this lady is off her rocker and looks at its council Criteria:

hmm, age of majority - check
not a criminal - check

what's missing.... well a Council should be of sound mind.... I think that might be something the High Council would agree on and a charter amendment proposed.

Well then, who determines if someone is of sound mind.... the courts..... that makes sense...

Have a vote of no confidence in regard to the the Jhelom Councilor's ability to serve on the Council due to a mental condition. And have the courts determine if Cow Lady fits the legal definition of a sound mind.

All of the OOC things going on here should be played through IC. If Cow Lady can get elected to the seat, convince the courts she is of sound mind, then fine she represents Jhelom. If not, so sorry but you can still advocate for Bovine rights as a citizen.

Laws and amendments are made because unexpected things happen like this all the time in RL. This is an rp community, you are all rpers, play it out through your character's eyes and stop all the OOC nonesense.

-Lore's Player
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Duke Greenspan
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Duke Greenspan » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:35 pm

Just a personal sharing on GL RP (before I am moving to other shard):

Let's look at the RP community a few yrs ago.... back to the time we have OSS, Highland Guards and Urk Orcs around.... role playing was very interesting at that time.... Yes, we had more ppls in the game and please be reminded, we had the very same problems in our RP community as well (IC & OOC regulations, HC meeting regulations, how do we select/vote for the councilor.... etc) from that time.

So the problems we are facing now is really nothing new.... but ppls changed, number of players available changed...etc. Some ppls prefer to keep old-rp rules from few yrs ago, while others believe we should adjust it... Since I am no longer active in the RP community, I won't say if I like the old ones or new ones... Yet, since we have arguements so it is necessary for us (or I should say u folks) to spend time to work all over again....

Is that necessary? From my obervation, we have over 60 viewers on this topic and over 3 pages of reply in this forum..... However, look at other topics... u don't even have 6 reply on any of them (it seems ppls won't have much to say if u post a meeting notes, rp-story, or other stuffs)... Logic tells me that there must be some problems around... if one says UO is a dying MMOG, then GL RP may even dying in a faster rate.... If it is really that hard to get ppls in GL RP, then u guys really can't afford existing rp-players to break apart like this.... It is not the time for who's right or wrong, it seems more like a time of what are u going to do for the RP community...


Having 1 player working on mult-charaters will always cause problems... This is not a new issue.... only we are not able to fix it from the past till now... Unfortunately, there aren't enough ppls in GL to do all the necesary RP (or sometimes player just needs more than 1 character), so it makes alt-characters are necessary... or even important in certain cases.... While it is not possible to control how many charaters can 1 player has, but I am not sure if we can set rules to control "what things/rights" can alt-characters do when it comes to voting/election... Anyway, I dare not go any further as I don't know the problems well enough...

As for the Cow-lady scenario.... yes, it is easy to tell that some ppls really don't buy this idea/story-line, while there are hardcore fans on the other end... If u are a business man then I am sure u won't bother to sell your product if no one in the market like it... So if a rp-story line, character, style, or structures cause more harm than benefits in the community, then u folks may want to consider adjusting it abit (if not abandon from it)...

Anyway, I am not active enough in GL RP to make any comments or say who is right or wrong... but it is really sad to know we have having so many problems in the community which we have started sooooo long..... Hopefully u folks can come up with a solutions sooner or later. I will be leaving GL around in 2nd week of July.


Duke's player
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