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Without trying to start a flaming war of wills here I want to see if we can find some common ground. Last night spiralled like a plane with no wings into the ground at high speed.

So I'm gonna point out some things I see on both sides of this issue.

1. If you take out the knowledge of dual clienting, ventrillo, guild chat, alliance chat, all that and go strictly IC
A. Would anyone without OUTSIDE knowledge know or have known that the Jhelomites were NOT different players each? Truly, not some justifiable excuse but if your char was a real person?
B. If Beauvina is "crazy" is there any clause in the constitution to define someone being "crazy" or forbidding excentric folk from holding office? Would a rational Council approve membership if there were questions?
C. Does the council have the right to overrule the vote of the citizens of the city as to whom they wish to represent them?
D. Does lack of decorum, respect for proper ettiquette in the time taken from members of the council count for anything?

OOC points
1. There are past issues, old wounds and personality conflicts that exist here, its fact.
Rumor A: Silverbrook is already on the council as Councilor of Magincia? Has neglected duties or withdrawn/retired/whatever without notice?
Rumor B: There have been harsh words, and negative emotions between two key players in this scenario that go back months/years.
Report C: Many are finding this disruption of roleplay over this seat to be consuming and or destroying the opportunities others have to participate and launch rp plots etc and that has been more of an opinion altering event than any of the rumors and past things that they may not have been privvy to.

2. The Constitution maybe out of keeping with the current existence of RP and population on the great lakes shard. 3 years ago we battled months over should it be 5 different characters* or players* required to gain a seat on the council, should it be 3 or should it be more than 5. It ate up months of time bickering over how to address election to council with the declining number of roleplayers.
A. Letter of the law
B. Spirit of the law
There are two different sides to laws, and in this situation 4 because we also have IC and OOC
Fact we have what 20 different players if all are active, currently available and not on a time out from gaming?
Yew is by far the best representation of citizenry. Tokuno seems to be up there but is NOT a crown city is its own empire. Newcastle has held its seat and spot despite having been nearly a ghost town, because there had to be so many at its inception it did NOT have to maintain those numbers. Whispering Winds is a ghost town, Minoc is dead there are not enough people to win an election registered to that city who actively play.

So I'd propose that if we have a warm booded, breathing roleplayer, who wants to participate welcome them. NOW I know there are concerns about being over run, about griefers, lack of dedication blah blah

I left this community as did many other because of this very thing, the drama, the hurt feelings, the resentment, and unwillingness to compromise and work together. I found Atlantic to be less drama, but mainly because the ruling council there is made up of guild leaders in the ARPC, and guildleaders are expected to control their members, if the bickering, flame wars and petty squabbles disrupt the communities right to gather, your expected to boot that member from your guild or the guild is dropped from the alliance. It is about the good of all not the one gulid or one player. Single member guilds pose an problem you have no choice but to kick the guild. It was a nice visit, the plot lines and stories there were too foreign for me to really feel part of. My history was on Great Lakes. We lost a lot of folks to atlantic, many who when that wasn't the answer left game for new territory.

What I am asking is for all of us, to come clean be honest, is this issue because I dislike someone, is it IC, is it someone else's fight, am I passing judgement without ever knowing the person behind that character? Its ok not to like everyone IF you have given them a chance and decided for yourself. What is not ok is to sabbotage or torpedo the community or other players because you have a grudge.

I am flattered many remember Tanda and me as her player fondly, I never considered myself much of a roleplayer. It is this energy draining, exahausting dramatic confllct that is behind my reason to leave and not come back to the HC 3 years ago. My move to Atlantic did allow me to bury and forget most of the past. I have found I'm a pretty good organzer, I put on a mean event and MOA and I fit together, but what many of the shard show that we don't in this community is appreciation and gratitude for the work of others. MOA has been active on ths shard for 10 years now. There are times when staffers have not gotten along, but we hold a guild meeting, talk it out and if bad comes to worse then we agree to disagree and do what is best for MOA, and even if hurt feelings are there its left there or you choose to leave if you can't work past it, if tht's not an option players have been removed. Patrons say thank you, they gift us gold to give away, the come to know us and icq you about big events in their lives. The people of the shard keep us going for over a year now it has been 7 players hosting 2 weekly events 50 weeks a year, we cover shifts for each other, work short staffed, give up our own gold, items,time whatever it takes. Its that sense of committment and dedication that is so addicting.

An effort is made to recognize the community is more than the Chancellor and the High Council whom ever that person/s maybe.
Respect becomes a first priority for all toward all, agree, disagree what have you it is addressed outside game.
Recognize that many others are concerned this issue is going to boil over and spill out into all interaction where duty or rp requires these conflicting personalities to be in the same proxmiity therefore exclusion of one seems a safer response, even if it is contrary to being an open community.
Choosing a side, and being immovable doesn't serve anyone, compromise and understanding is necessary to move forward.
*Characters or players were key concerns, One is IC, each character that you roleplay should be able to vote for whomever on behalf of what ever community they reside in. As each character is IC a different person. Now the OOC thing came into this arugment years ago because they were concerned then it would become he who owns the most accounts wins. I think that comes back to honesty and truth to character and respect you don't sandbag or torpedo someone because of personality confilcts.

I feel that I am still too new to truly address these issues, but I'm going to do it anyway. My letter is my own, I don't speak for the entirety of my guild at this point, let alone for others in the community. These thoughts are just mine.

The other night when this issue came up in the HC chamber, I asked in alliance chat if I could say something, and no one responded.

This is about what I would have said in alliance chat the other night. One advantage of saying it here is that I can't be reasonably accused of hiding my point of view from Silverbrook's player (not that I would, I'd rather things be out in the open).

One disadvantage is that fewer people will have a chance to see it.

To me the issue is this: There is no reasonable in-character rationale for taking the Cow Lady character seriously. None. The in-character arguments that have been advanced have pretty much been: Sherry the Mouse can talk, DaKaren can time-travel.

Yes, Sherry can talk. But, everyone can understand her, and she's long-been an adviser to kings and leaders. The cows are, quite clearly, not in the same category. I have no thoughts on DaKaren being a time traveler or whatever he is, save for the fact that it's not any "worse" than, say, Silverbrook's having "born" from the sands of Nujel'M, or Calibus being a demon. (Our tendency to assign extraordinary significance and abilities to our characters is, I feel, a separate but related issue.)

Despite the lack of good in-character rationale for doing so, we are continually asked to take the cow lady seriously as a character. Since I got here, she has led a coup attempt against DaKaren on the basis of the latter's absence from the HC chamber (he was kidnapped at the time), and she's filed a libel lawsuit against Malag, which cost me about 4 hours of my life in an in-character court. She has also openly claimed that her cow is a lawyer, that her cows eat the corns off her feet at her explicit request, and that her cows are spies. Before I got here, her exploits, which we appeared to be expected to take seriously, have included some kind of military assault against Yew, using cows.

As I said, there is no good in-character reason to take this character seriously, yet we are continuously asked to.

It's quite clear to me that the reason we're supposed to take the character seriously is the social relationships among the players. Silverbrook's and Ra'Dian's players are both well-liked and popular and are considered pillars of the community. Hence, because of the status of the players, the cow lady is supposed to be taken seriously.



This kind of arrangement is a red flag for me about the health of an RP community. Ask yourself what the reaction would be if I had taken the exact same actions. The cow lady's continual presence is the biggest single obstacle (not the only obstacle) to my allowing Galen to seek a seat on the High Council.

I find Silverbrook's player to be a problematic personality. (Sorry to you and Ra's player.) I feel a little less bad about this because on Stratics she's made it explicit and clear that she doesn't like me either, and in fact didn't like me before I even knew who she was. (She'd gone after me so much and so bitterly on Stratics that I had long-mistaken her for a lady who'd harassed me for years on LS.) However, if Silver's player were to seek a High Council seat on another character, despite my out-of-character feelings, I wouldn't feel as-strongly on this issue. Why she simply doesn't participate on the HC as the Silverbrook character completely bewilders me. Though at this point, things have gone so far with the cow lady that I'm hesitant to interact with her at all. When Kasavar talks I hesitate to respond. That's how far it's gone.

(And by the way, I've heard Silverbrook in-character explicitly claim to be still on the HC and explicitly claim to no longer be on the HC. Character and player both really need to get this point settled.)

I'll not be attending tonight's court action. It is an attempt to deal with an out-of-character issue in an in-character way, and that must fail by definition.

DaKaren's player has his issues too. If I took him seriously about Galen's ability to hear things from the Council Chamber, the Event Moderator would be doing a lot of stuff outside the Chamber that we'd never notice, let alone interact with. Luckily, however, I have made a conscious decision to not take him seriously on that point.

But none of his issues have made me this nervous, have gone this far.

I'll be doing my best to not explicitly address these issues again. I came here for the RP and the EM events, and I've mostly not regretted my choice.

-Galen's player

Indeed there is an issue here, both IC and OOC. I’m going to be quite candid here as this has gone beyond the realm of idiocy.

There are personal issues between Beauvina’s player and I, and honesty at least one other (aside from Galen). However, the reasons why she has been so forceful at the events are entirely her own. Part of why I’m not giving in to her whims is because she has worked more against the community than for it for quite a while now. She has openly denigrated the HC (OOC) for as far back as I can remember.

Although I did ask her to be Councilor for Magincia so the ‘city’ wouldn’t be completely dead, and she wouldn’t be completely alienated from RP. That lasted all of about three months before she stopped coming. Oh well.

Then the Beauvina character reappeared after a 2.5ish year hiatus. Originally, I was entertained by the character and to some extent still am. However, as has been voiced by virtually the entire community on several occasions, ‘realistically’ her inclusion on the HC wouldn’t happen. A joke character in what’s supposed to be the civilian government has driven quite a few away from the community. Sorry, but trotting out Phoenix from 4+ years ago isn’t a valid argument anymore. The player doesn’t seem to accept or acknowledge this reality, however, and has pressed onwards.

This is where things get nasty. The player has continually attempted to use IC shtick as a means of ignoring the community’s voice. When denied IC, she becomes abusive OOC. Mainly this has come as attacks against me, and yes, is part of why I currently dislike her. She had used information she knows is community no-nos. Real names without permission, ‘revealing’ alts, and attempting to put down others RP.

Now, has the community ‘put down’ her RP? In short, yes. However, in the beginning it was done IC based on the persona she presented. Then, as nobody took the character ‘seriously,’ things got uglier and uglier as she tried to push everyone’s buttons and then play innocent.

Alts. Ah, multiple personality disorder thy form is MMO… We all have them, some are known – some aren’t. In fact, there are several people who would be very upset if someone randomly revealed their alt just to be vindictive. And yet, she reveals them against community policy because it’s a weapon. She wields it like a club without any proper context. When attempting to acquire a HC Councilorship, she used alts to make it appear as though there was community support behind her. There wasn’t. While she may kvetch that this was ‘revealed,’ it wasn’t. At the June 7th HC meeting Beauvina spoke as one of the farmers for several lines. Check your logs.

Now for the meat. The Councilorship. There is no Jhelom, there is no community – no players behind her to form a city. Yew has a great many players behind it, and has even held elections. Kudos. Hence it has a Councilor. Newcastle has five players living in it now, however, has no Councilor. Malag-aste has reported on its status, but not in any ‘official’ voting capacity (aside from the role of Minister). Perhaps this will change in the nearish future.

So. Why should a single player be allowed to place herself on the Council, circumventing the guidelines the community agreed on? One person doesn’t make a city, no matter how many clients they can run. If we are to be about “community” then let’s see some actual work to make one. The cart cannot come before the horse, no matter who you are. The argument of “Well, there’s so many empty seats! Let’s fill them!” isn’t valid either. Filling a seat without anything actually behind it is pure window dressing. It’s like putting all your alts into one guild and then going out recruiting saying “Look how many people we have, come join!” It’s pure bunk. The screams of “It’s a game!” aren’t valid either, as this isn’t a single player experience. Her ‘enjoyment’ doesn’t trump the community.

If she actually went out and built a *real* Jhelom community that brought people into the community – legitimately creating a city- then that would be a completely different story. It would take hard work and dedication – the only things that will actually grow GLRPC.

Now, the “court case”. Sigh. Sorry Ra, no offense intended, but you know this is an OOC issue, not IC. You KNOW there is no community in Jhelom behind her. You can say “Well, Ra doesn’t know that…” IC all you want, but you know it’s a hollow argument. I won’t be at the court either; I have things that I need to take care of re: mother. You can’t overrule community opinion simply because you want to appease your friend.

Lastly, because I find this so odd – and beyond stupid… DaKaren and time travel. Uhm. No. Someone obviously has issues understanding writing here. DK hasn’t travelled in time at any point in his history. I have, however, used it as a plot device in several stories. Woodrow and Kestal are the only characters to have time travelled so far, and only in the stories. And yes, I’ve used references to Dr. Who in fiction. If you’d bothered to play the core Ultima games you’d know why. The ‘Timelord’ has always been a riff on Tom Baker’s Doctor (the portrait in Ultima 7 is baker’s face.) Since you’ve never bothered to ask of DK’s background, you have no idea what it’s about. I will continue to use the back story of Ultima, goofy pop culture references and all.

Would you like it if in game I pointed out that Silverbrook, Lady of Magincia, who had the Crook of Humility has two gigantic ostentatious marble mansions? Or that she supposed to be the Avatar of a Goddess? No? Though so.

I’m tired of the drama too. But ‘giving in’ to someone just to shut them up isn’t the answer – nor would it be the last time. Once precedent is set it will be abused.

My response to all of this is simple, and plain:

Back when we changed it over to the "you need x people to back you," everyone present when we decided on three people all agreed that whatever happened had to be handled in an IC manner.

There is a plain and simple reason that every document for the High Council was written in an IC manner: We cannot turn to OOC to suit our own needs whenever we feel like it. The only agreed upon use of IC vs. OOC was that we have expressly forbidden people from parading a group of people (alts) into a vote to tilt them one way or another (not, again, that we could prove that happened even if we wanted to, except beyond recognizing the major names in the community).

When we chose the method for election that turned it over to the individual communities -- away from a system which had been rewritten to fit the community multitudes of times but remained basically "the council propegates itself" -- we knew, discussed, and understood that it could be abused IC to get someone on the Council. Our opinion at the time was, "Well, if someone wants to go through that much trouble to be a voice on the Council, so be it." That's why there's ways to get people off the Council, and why it's not exactly a difficult process.

On the other hand, if someone got onto the Council and then continually tried to "destroy" the Council (believe me, I'm super tired of hearing this accusation in the current situation), then as a community, we'd all have to step up to say "enough is enough, that person is no longer a part of the community." That hasn't happened in this case, or anything near it. We've got a couple of people with an OOC issue, and that cannot govern our IC issues.

As to why a court case to handle this? Because from where I sit this is not now nor has it ever been an OOC issue. I'm still of the school that we deal with stuff IC, not OOC unless there's a major issue (ie: griefing, random killing of community members, et cetera). No matter how much some parties wish this to be an OOC matter, I do not see it as such, and in-game I cannot address it as such.

To be frank, the constitution was written the way it was for a reason, and a large part of it was to prevent exactly what's happening here. Two people in a stalemate over OOC issues whereby one says, "And that's how it's going to be." But the IC nature of the beast must prevail in this situation, and so that's where it will be dealt with. I'm not getting into the middle of an OOC pissing match about ego, because, to be frank, if I did, there'd be a lot of issues far and above where we stand today.



[Edited to specify the group of people paraded through in voting were alts.]

Riddle me this then:


How can the use of alts to fake a community be countered in an IC way?

Saying: "Thy citizens are naught more than manifestations of thy addled mind..." Seems a bit silly, and impossible to 'prove.'


When someone resorts to OOC schenanigans for IC gain, the whole of the issue is inherently OOC.

Interesting. I doubt that Tanda's intent was a 'bash on Silverbrook' thread, but yet, here we are. I am loathe to use this site, but I thought in the interest of certain parties I should provide a suitable counter point. So, let's start, shall we?

Lady Silverbrook is not a member of the High Council, and has not been for ages. I'm unsure why Galen said I told him my character was on it, but I never did. Ever. I'm also unsure why DaKaren felt that he was allowing me to serve so I wouldn't feel 'alientated'. Quite the contrary, I enjoy the RP that I do and the people I choose to interact with. From a RP perspective, I did not feel that the character would continue in a capacity of councilor. That's it. When I 'returned', Brad sent me several pms and emoted nudges to come up to the council chairs, but IC I declined, saying IC I would rather sit with those NOT on the council. Again, IC motivations.

As far as mentioning alts, I also find that curious, seeing as everyone knew right off the bat that Silverbrook played Beauvina, as well as others, even though it was known by only a few people. Also, I never decried that I did NOT play a Jhelomite there the night Beauvina presented herself as councilor. I WILL say that I did not multi client three Jhelomites and myself. I'm not that talented, but it would be nice. Anyone who thinks someone could multi client that many at once must also be an expert at conspiracy theories, LOL. I wasn't alone, and I will leave it at that. I don't even have that many accounts. Still, many people in the community including yourself DaKaren multi client (I mean, you've had both DaKaren AND Martyna testify at trial before against Beauvina... is that any better?). It is very well known. We do it to flesh out stories, characters, and motivations.

Which leads me to the community in itself. You can't create a community if it doesn't exist. We currently, I think, have perhaps 14-18 players active in the community, if that. Most players take up many assumed mantles to fill out roles. We have had empty seats upon the High Council since I originally served in 2004, and it has dwindled down to, basically, Yew. My intent was to bring a character in that is seen as 'fun' by many outside of rp circles in order to establish activities, interest and community events. I'm unsure where this 'She is out to destroy RP!' angle comes from. In fact, by sheer volume I would guess I've run more events than perhaps every person ON the current High Council with perhaps the exception of Ra'Dian. While I have never said I'm a fan of the High Council, I am a fan of community; which is why it saddens me that in my opinion Brad has used his OOC anger towards me to utilize IC conditions that present obstacles to assist the High Council. This is both odd and unfortunate, as I'm willing to assist the very fictional government that is currently 'run' by a character that is, essentially, putting his own issues before the good of many.

And Brad? As far as these 'invisible people' that populate the cities, the HC in truth leads no one except those that recognize it, which is mainly the few RP groups which exist and thankfully EMs that realize the importance of RP on the shard. It is silly to get into a pissing contest over how many people you need to serve on a community, fictional government when the community itself is tragically small and you have someone who actually WANTS to hold events and lend a hand. I ask you: when was the last time you gave back to the community?

By the way, I've never asked anyone to take Beauvina seriously, just as I wouldn't ask people to read a story about Tasslehoff Burrfoot seriously. They aren't supposed to be dark, 'serious', brooding characters. What I have asked is that people keep in perspective the possibility of talking animals to someone in a world populated by wizards, dark elves and magic. It's all fantasy, its all fantastic. She's SUPPOSED to be funny, and outside of the very few who detest her OOC, I would argue she has become quite popular to some. She's supposed to be written as I play her, ditzy, grating and a bit quick to anger.

Oh, and one more note to touch upon:

>>Would you like it if in game I pointed out that Silverbrook, Lady of Magincia, who had the Crook of Humility has two gigantic ostentatious marble mansions? Or that she supposed to be the Avatar of a Goddess? No? Though so. <<

Feel free to! I actually had this discussion with Malag once IC, and have discussed it with others both IC and OOC. There is an actual reason she lives like she does... but you know what? You've never asked.

I hope that clears the air a bit on things.

I wasn't going to say anything on this topic at all, however, I do have one question that I haven't seen brought up. For the record, I don't actually feel one way or the other on the subject at hand, and I'm not involved at all. If anything, I'm simply curious about the answer.

Funny characters though, such as Tasslehoff, and say, Walter from "Fringe" (if anyone has ever seen it), provide something that absolutely NO ONE else can provide. Of course they are written in as being invaluable, but the point is, they are. In order to save the day, and save lives, and win the war, or whatever is going on, you MUST have their help. And in between saving the day and ending wars, they are quite funny.

And yet all of them are simply tolerated. At least at first. Over time the people around them will eventually come to really care for them, and deeply, and befriend them, but at first, they are tolerated, put up with only, because people have to, because they provide some important service that only they can provide. And even then, some people never truly warm up to them, or like them, but will control themselves enough not to kill them. (IE: Raistlin vs. Tasselhoff)

So, Beauvina has the funny part covered. But how is the character (yes, character, not player) invaluable. What does she provide that no other character can provide? What makes her special, and important enough, that her being crazy should be overlooked and put up with?

Hello my Fellow Role-Players

I’m Edward Striker / Tiberus Delmore,
I have been playing UO for just under five years now, and have moved back to Great Lakes after spending almost four years on Europa Role-playing. A member of your group told me about the Great Lake RPers and showed me around. Told me about Tavern Night and The Council Meeting. Told me since our guild was going to become a city with a banner and that we had players that were interested in RPing that I could come and watch and report back. I spoke with my guild leader and was given the go ahead to attend. I should note here and now, that our guild is not a RP Guild, it is a Guild that is all-inclusive, allowing everyone who is willing to help their fellow player and is respectful of others to join. We PVP, PVM, Hunt, Craft, RP, and do EM events. No all members do all the stated items above.

So I went to the meeting. Sat upfront so I could see and hear all that went on, so I could learn and see how RP is done on Great Lakes.

You only get one chance to make a first impression; and an impression is what I got. I was told before hand what the normal order of events are during the Council Meeting, so I was surprised when that didn’t take place. But I understood there was an empty seat on the council and it was going to be filled, smart move to me that they would fill it and then move on this their scheduled items, that way the new member could take part in the upcoming events.

Then there was the Beauvina issue. My understanding was that question and such would be taken from the general public at the end. Now, my personal opinion is now coming into my response here.

1. Why was it allowed to happen, the breaking of the scheduled format?
2. Why was Beauvina allowed to continue after told to sit down? An Usher or a Sergeant of Arms should have removed her from the podium.
3. Why did the center seat of the council not gavel her off and come back to the issue at the end?
4. Why was there no reaction from the head table? (I know someone was having internet issues, but still, the player of Beauvina could have been told via ICQ, Guild Chat, Alliance Chat, General Chat, Vent or Party Chat to set down and it would be deal with at the end)

Now being in ICQ and Vent with some of the players during this I learn some interesting things!

1. That Beauvina already held a seat on the council with another character. This is not a smart move to have two characters of the same player on a council; it unbalances the reason for having players.
2. That this player used his/her own characters to nominate herself to this post. That just tells me that no one else was willing to.
3. I learn the this player who held this other seat was not active in her role as a council member, so why allow another slot to be taken by that play when they already have shown a lack of respect to the council by not taking part in the system?

What I also found offensive was that there are other player sitting there wanting to take part and could not because the player (Beauvina) was so self-centered and rude, she did not care if she was wasting the time of other players. That in its self in my opinion would disqualified her from the post on the council.

It is because of her actions and that of some of the other players, such as the heckler sitting on the left side of the chamber that I withdrew from taking part with this group and informed my Guild Leader and Members that at this time, Role-playing with this group should be at a minimum if not at all. I was totally disappointed with what I saw and heard.

A Code of Conduct should be established and enforce as to not let things like this effect further events. After what I saw I would not recommend this group to anyone seeking to RP on Great Lakes!

Respectably Submitted

Edward Striker
Tiberus Delmore

I can't currently play from India, so disqualify my opinion if you feel that being unable to play warrants my opinion moot.

The community is small, too small to have pissing contests over trivial issues. Those pissing contests had to be put aside and an effort had to be made to get along. A lot of us that are still around have not only buried the hatchets, we put them in a lockbox and threw them into the deepest part of the sea where even Jeac Costeau couldn't get to them. Before I my job took me to India, I was confident enough to give Polynike's access to my stuff. Even from India, I have offered to bankroll the purchase of Whispering Winds if someone wanted to start a Skara Brae town council, no one wanted to though. If that doesn't show the level at which the community was/is coming together, I don't know what will.

However, this is not a trivial issue. I have no personal beef with Silver, I have been friendly with her. I was hopeful for her crossroad tavern. I was hopeful that she might do something with Magincia or Moonglow since she owns such prime real estate. I've been hopeful with her effort with Kasavar to finally get involved with RPvP. I've seen the logs though, I've seen the way she personally attacks other people and while it has not been directed at me, it's unacceptable. Only a blind man would see her IC actions towards certain people as real IC behavior, it's a blatant attempt to get under someone's skin OOC. She has to apologize to these people. I had long discussions with Poly to make up for past confrontations, I've even come to you as well Tanda to bury past grievances. Silver should have to as well. Her refusal to do so, and what I perceived from several logs as a condition of her not feeling she was in the wrong for being that way, make it to me, not a trivial issue. If all of it was because of some relationship break-up in real life or family issues, fine, say so, no one will judge, but otherwise it is inexcusable.

A multi clienting approach to for a city is not a valid way to grow the Council. If it was, I would have done it myself with Britain. I put a lot of work into Britain and getting Nero, Ed, and Locke to come back and play, only for Velturus to come in and crush the rp because at the time the BAF favored him because they needed an enemy to fight. I tried to multi client Locke for one Council meeting because he had left UO in disgust, but it was no use, it was fake, so I gave up and let Britain fall back to not having a council seat. It sucked, I hated it, I've invested a lot into the area around Britain, but just because I had done that didn't give me the right to be a one man shown on the Council with it. That shouldn't be the case for Jhelom as well. I haven't been able to play for the last two months yet I still read the sites, and I don't really see any indication that as much effort as I put into Britain has been made in Jhelom. If it has, my apologies, but I suspect I am not wrong here. Even if she has, I refer to my previous point, why does someone get to be a one man show for a city?

If she can get three real people to commit to Jhelom and she apologizes for the nasty remarks she has said about people, I have no quarrels and fully support their inclusion. The community needs to grow, but it needs to grow as a group that is capable of getting along. Growing it just for the sake of putting another number on the score board is a bad idea.

To Tiberius:

1. Why was it allowed to happen, the breaking of the scheduled format?

There is no "scheduled format" that has been adhered to in quite some time. Long story short, when the Chancellor recognizes you, you have the opportunity to speak.

2. Why was Beauvina allowed to continue after told to sit down? An Usher or a Sergeant of Arms should have removed her from the podium.

That's a tricky one, but in essence, mostly because the IC/OOC line had already been breached by the Chancellor at not one but two sessions in a row.

3. Why did the center seat of the council not gavel her off and come back to the issue at the end?

I will say he tried to do so at the first meeting; the unfortunate issue at the crux of this is that the person behind the Chancellor and the person behind Beauvina have a dislike for each other, however that doesn't mean that one or the other should redact themselves from participating in the community.

4. Why was there no reaction from the head table? (I know someone was having internet issues, but still, the player of Beauvina could have been told via ICQ, Guild Chat, Alliance Chat, General Chat, Vent or Party Chat to set down and it would be deal with at the end)

There was no reaction for my part because I'd already sat through it going on once, and now it was happening again, and frankly, it leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.

1. That Beauvina already held a seat on the council with another character. This is not a smart move to have two characters of the same player on a council; it unbalances the reason for having players.

That's not been the case for some time, but for whatever reason, there's still this air of pretense by some of the Council that the character is still in service. It is not. It has not been for quite some time. But apparently it hinges on whether or not the character walks up and specifically utters the words "I resign," rather than every other indication it's given that it's resigned both IC and OOC.

2. That this player used his/her own characters to nominate herself to this post. That just tells me that no one else was willing to.

That's actually not true. And for the record, as a player, I completely support her doing something in Jhelom, and if necessary, will use a character to support her in Jhelom; I'm sure I could find a second.

3. I learn the this player who held this other seat was not active in her role as a council member, so why allow another slot to be taken by that play when they already have shown a lack of respect to the council by not taking part in the system?

Well, whomever is casting stones about someone being inactive in their role as a council member should stop casting stones and get up and do something themselves. I can't speak to the history of the character on the Council because I haven't been here the whole time the character was seated, but I can say that the player has held several events throughout the course that I've known the player, I also am privy to some of the stuff the player want(s/ed) to accomplish with the Seat of Jhelom.

I can also speak to the state of the Council, and I'd say no one has the right to cast stones about "involvement" in any shape or form at the moment.

What I also found offensive was that there are other player sitting there wanting to take part and could not because the player (Beauvina) was so self-centered and rude, she did not care if she was wasting the time of other players. That in its self in my opinion would disqualified her from the post on the council.

Well, I've already privately said I agree that Beauvina's player's actions weren't necessarily the best, but I won't let the blame be centered entirely on one head. The situation was a two-way street, and the reactions of the player of the Chancellor were as bad in the situation because frankly, I believe he purposely took the actions he took because he believes he has the right to decide who can and cannot participate in the community -- and he does not have that right.

A Code of Conduct should be established and enforce as to not let things like this effect further events. After what I saw I would not recommend this group to anyone seeking to RP on Great Lakes!

I'm sorry that you feel that way, and all I can say is that I will personally work to help improve the situation at the High Council. I agree the situation is sad, but the Chancellor's player needs to be held as responsible as Beauvina's player, and it's a bit tedious that it's been framed as entirely one person's fault (not saying you did this, just that I know how the framing began).

At the end of the day, I want to apologize to you about how the Council handled an IC issue in an OOC fashion, and wasted the time of a great deal of people two sessions in a row. We'll fix it, and hopefully someday you'll return to see the changes.


To Severn:

So, Beauvina has the funny part covered. But how is the character (yes, character, not player) invaluable. What does she provide that no other character can provide? What makes her special, and important enough, that her being crazy should be overlooked and put up with?

That's the difference between an MMORPG and a book -- the book is written with specific purpose and the characters follow a specific line (though, as a writer, I know the characters sometimes grow beyond the intended, initial confines). An MMORPG, you define the character, you play the character, but there is no end goal.

What does she provide that no other character can provide? The ability to talk to cows. Now, we've by and large decided, "That means she's crazy." Well, hey, it's UO... we talk to mice, and dragons, and god only knows what on a daily basis. Maybe she is crazy because we can't hear them. Maybe she's not. Who knows.

But... "and put up with?" is an interesting question, I suppose. Why should anyone put up with anyone else's character. I've heard the character isn't "serious" RP. Well, whatever... It is RP. You cannot look (save for these wonderfully explosive two HC sessions) and say that the character isn't RPed. It's not just some person playing a character showing up at events and griefing, or speaking "sup thou?" on a regular basis. It is a character with history, with motivation, and with character. Is it okay for other CHARACTERS to not like Beauvina? Certainly. Is it okay for the PLAYERS not to like her? Sure, but it's NOT okay for that to filter into in-character reactions just for the sake of doing so. Which is a lot of what happened right out of the gate because I know for a fact that certain voices in Vent were getting into a frenzy just because she showed up, and continued on every time she did show up.

I mean, sure, the context may seem silly, but again, this is UO. When Beauvina first showed up to the HC, she brought her "friends" in to attend the meeting. If you want to talk about inappropriate behavior that was put up with, I could give you a list, but it doesn't all come from Beauvina. What I can say is the character develops... There was a court hearing, "Is it okay for Beauvina to bring her 'friends' to attend the meeting?"

Now, I personally got to hear from a handful of sources how I as a player shouldn't have allowed that court case to move forward; how it's not serious RP; how I'm allowing the community to be damaged by doing so. And I got to hear about how everyone, because I happen to be friends with the player IRL, presumed I already had the outcome decided. That's a pretty offensive statement, actually, because I'm friends with several people out of the game, and I wouldn't let that cloud in-game interaction with any one of them. So the court case was heard, and in the end, it was decided that Beauvina could NOT let her 'friends' attend the meetings. So the character developed, and while her 'friends' might come sit in the stables, they don't come into the meeting hall anymore. Why? Because it was handled in-game. Was the character upset at the bar? Sure. Did the player vilify me for the decision? No.

In the end, maybe there's no tangible "thing" that the character brings to RP... but it does bring RP, so I'm not so certain what the issue is other than people having discussions about the player and forming conclusions that fall into the game long before anyone knows what's truly going on.


To Basil:

Even from India, I have offered to bankroll the purchase of Whispering Winds if someone wanted to start a Skara Brae town council, no one wanted to though.

Err... first I've heard of it, so I'm going to guess the message didn't get sent far and wide. This "no one" probably doesn't exist.

I've seen the logs though, I've seen the way she personally attacks other people and while it has not been directed at me, it's unacceptable.

With respect, you've seen logs that (1) may have been altered or picked up in the middle of a dispute, and (2) have definitely not gotten the full side of the story if you're going to believe those logs and point fingers at the way "she attacks other people." Whatever issue DaKaren's player and Silver's player have, that's for them. The issue between Willa's player and Silver's... well, you can't start attacking someone for their RP and expect not to have someone respond in kind. It just doesn't work that way. So again, we're framing the issue entirely as one person's issue. It's not.

What's NOT acceptable is the situation we have here though... those logs are between the people that spoke them, and if they can't work out their situation, that's fine, but it's unacceptable for them to spread those logs like wildfire in order to build a case against one person just because they can't handle the situation on their own. Because for every "negative" interaction that's been portrayed, I can find plenty of positive interactions that can be portrayed as well.

In the end, this is an issue between a small group of people, but now everyone under the sun is getting involved, and it's steamrolling out of proportion and into a state of being ludicrous.

Only a blind man would see her IC actions towards certain people as real IC behavior, it's a blatant attempt to get under someone's skin OOC.

Oh, that's good, Basil. If you really think that the whole situation here is Silver's player is trying to get under Dak's player's skin, you've drunk the grape kool-aid that Dak's player has provided. It's not the case and has never been the case.

I mean, let's look at the logic of this... Silver's player wants to put a character on the High Council to do some stuff out of Jhelom. Wants to get some events and stuff going. Or Silver's player just wants to be a thorn in DaKaren's player's side.

Since Silver "already has" a character on the High Council, if this was all about vendetta and vindictive spite, wouldn't that character have provided plenty of opportunity to do so?

She has to apologize to these people.

No. No she doesn't. I agree it would be good if "these people" sat down and talked and tried to hash things out, but she no more has to apologize to them than they do to her, and if there's going to be apologizing going on, then it needs to be a two-way street.

Silver should have to as well. Her refusal to do so, and what I perceived from several logs as a condition of her not feeling she was in the wrong for being that way, make it to me, not a trivial issue.

Shame on those people for passing along logs, and shame on you for backing them up without the full story.

Again, I'm not saying Silver's innocent in all of this, but by damn, I'm certain neither are two of the people that those logs potentially came from.

Even if she has, I refer to my previous point, why does someone get to be a one man show for a city?

Ask the people who have fulfilled that role in the Council's past.

I mean, I served as Councilor of Magincia waaaaaaaay back when the Council first started, and I took the role seriously and went out and tried to drum up some activity. But, yeah, Magincia was basically "just me" at the time. People didn't show up to my events saying, "You know, I don't see anyone else here on Magincia that has your support, so no, I don't recognize you."

It's what you do with the role that counts much more than how many people are standing behind you.

If she can get three real people to commit to Jhelom and she apologizes for the nasty remarks she has said about people, I have no quarrels and fully support their inclusion.

Again, she doesn't have to apologize for anything.

However, whether or not she takes the support or not, I'll stand behind her and throw my hat in to support her in Jhelom. What does that mean? It means if she holds events there, I will be there to assist her with them on an appropriate Jhelomite character. Does it mean I'm going to live and breath Jhelom? No. So I'm sure the standard that's about to be flung out is "But you're already Justicar, you don't live in Jhelom, and you're not going to do it full time, so she has to find three REAL people to support her."

Which is exactly the crux of the issue at this point. It wouldn't matter if I had four people or five people standing here saying, "I'll support her," because the person who is looking to keep her uninvolved will continually look for reasons to say "no."